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To Intervene, Or Not To Intervene?

by Pick1 @ 2008-06-26 - 19:56:09

No-one can criticise the far left for lacking energy. In 2003 the SWC organised one of the biggest peace time rallies in modern British history and it has vociferously expanded its political demands ever since. Its central manifesto of ‘Troops Out!’ has swollen to include ‘Freedom For Palestine!’ and ‘Don’t Attack Iran!’ (slightly lacking in originality that one). Clearly SWC is not a one-issue organisation and it obviously strives to fight for people’s rights in various parts of the world. So what, you may ask, is SWC’s position on that highly topical subject of Zimbabwe? Hmmm, well I’m not quite sure because try as I might I couldn’t find a single sentence covering the events in Zimbabwe on SWC’s website. Nor could I find any stories about the repression in Burma or North Korea. So why the silence over Mugabe? Surely they could knock-up a few 'Free Zimbabwe' placards and bring them on the next pro-Hezbollah march? Now I wouldn’t be so glib as to insinuate that the stoppers don’t care about the plight of Zimbabwe; clearly that is not the case. No the real reason for its embarassing silence is twofold; firstly SWC is a counter culture organisation. It exists only to reflexively criticise the actions of its own Government. As the West is manifestly innocent of any crimes comitted in Zimbabwe the far left has little to say on the issue. Secondly and more pertinently the far left is intellectually bankrupt, (although not financially so, Galloway isn’t short of a penny or two). The far left offers only reactive slogans, (Don’t Attack Iraq! e.t.c.), it offers no positive ideas and hasn’t done since 1989. So the far left can offer nothing positive for Zimbabwe, apart from muttering about the fact that it’s an Arican problem and not much can be done about it. Effectively the far left doesn’t have the faintest what to do with Mugabe and it’ll be damned if it’s going to venture a constructive suggestion.

So it’s a straight choice then either we do something or we don’t. Either we accept that Mugabe is free to bully and to torture and to murder or we try and do something about it. And if we do accept that we are right to try and help Mugabe’s victims then we accept that free people have a moral right to help fellow humans toiling under political oppression. Whether it is a vocal condemnation, the voiding of a knighthood, ecnomic sanctions or military intervention, the principle is the same; free countries are morally right to intervene/interfere to help bring down dictatorships. The practical justification for the extent of that intervention depends on each individual case. Perhaps that is why SWC is so quiet about Zimbabwe and Burma and North Korea; it knows the international community is morally justified to intervene against dictatorships and it cannot offer an alternative way to help the world.

So what’s the answer for Zimbabwe? Clearly we cannot sit back and do nothing. Military intervention would be morally justified but is it the best form of intervention for Zimbabwe? Military intervention by the Viet Cong in Cambodia stopped the genocide of the Khmer Rouge, similarly Tutsi rebels deposed the genocidal Hutu regime. But military intervention is risky and Mugabe’s supporters, the army and the war veterans, would be sure to wage a bloody insurgency campaign. I have much sympathy with the view that military intervention is only justified in cases of genocide. The trouble is how do you define genocide? Hundreds have been killed in the last few weeks; is there a magic number of deaths that legitimises intervention? To my mind military intervention would be morally legitimate but too risky to implement, at the moment. Yet the international community should continue to pile on the pressure. Perhaps an African intervention force could be setup with Western logistical backing; the threat of this force might just be enough to intimidate Mugabe out of power. This is unlikely given Mugabe’s stubbornness and the lethargy of African politicians but surely it is worth a try? If Mugabe remains in power the moral pressure for military intervention may eventually come to outweigh the practical risks.

Having said all that perhaps the SWC are right to ignore Zimbabwe after all, maybe they do actually have one constructive policy. Perhaps if we put Bush and Blair on trial for war crimes, allow the Iranians to develop nuclear weapons and give Hamas a free reign in Palestine then maybe, just maybe there will be peace on earth and Mugabe will step down from power. If not they could always have a quick demo.


 
 

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FuManChuFuManChu [Member]
2008-06-26 @ 20:48

"In 2003 the SWC organised one of the biggest peace time rallies in modern British history" : the self delusions here are astonishing. It was the issue, not the organizers that got people out.

Since its central manifesto of ‘Troops Out!’ has swollen to include ‘Freedom For Palestine!’ and ‘Don’t Attack Iran!’ the public's attendances have dwindled away. Put off by too many lefty space cadets trying to be the vanguard of the revolution and not enough focus on the real issue that concerned the public in the first place.

Pick1Pick1 [Member]
2008-06-26 @ 21:19

That may well be true; but my point was that SWC has organised plenty of marches for Iraq but nothing for Zimbabwe and its politics offer nothing positive for the world.

I just got back from two weeks in China. How do you see the future shaping up for the Chinese people in the coming years?

FuManChuFuManChu [Member]
2008-06-30 @ 12:47

It was Chow En Lai who, when asked what he thought was the impact of the French Revolution, said that 'its too early to tell'.

I am not sure who counts as 'Chinese people' in this context. Which city or province are you thinking about?

Pick1Pick1 [Member]
2008-06-30 @ 19:27

Ok I agree that was a pretty general question and China is vast country with many different cultures. I guess I am interested to know what people generally think of democracy and the Communist Party. I just wondered whether you see a democratic future for China. Of course you may not wish to answer that question and completely understand if that is the case.

IanrosmarinIanrosmarin pro
2008-06-27 @ 23:35

Oh fucking shut up his right!

Paulus82 [Visitor]
http://touchingfromadistance.blog.co.uk
2008-06-28 @ 14:30

I really wish you would stop boxing the whole Left movement into the SWC Stalinist block. A big chunk of the left, particularly the Orwellist Left, have always been behind intervention when necessary, and strongly oppose any authoritarian regime, be it Saddam, Mugabe or the Ayatollahs in Iran.

The sad truth is that military intervention in Islamic countries will always be a highly dangerous tactic. I can not think of one Muslim majority country, which has been invaded, and not faced the collective clout of Jihadism. It what drove the Soveiets out of Afghanistan, has proved a disaster in Iraq and Israel to pull out of Lebanon. I think that the Muslim world is probaly best left to their own devices because any intervention is essentially counter-productive, and just leads to a reactionist backlash. If you look at Jordan for example, this country is becoming progressivly more Western, moderate and liberal due to the peoples' own devices. It still has an authoritarian regime, yet, the people are making this change for the better themselves. That is why many in the Left see the solution to the Islamic world, and Iraq is just one of the proven examples of imposing Western democracy leading to disaster.

Zimbabwe and Burma is a different story. Clearly, the vast majority of the people in these countries are completely opposed to the regimes they live under, which is why if there was a military invasion by the West and/or African nations, there would be little to regimes could to to mass mobilize the people. All of these regimes have little but rhetoric to unite the people, they are the corruptest regimes on the planet, they have no real ideology of the people, or a consensus of the masses. That's why intervention would not be as disasterouse as I believe... the whole international and African community is opposed to the so what could Mugabe use to unite the people against them? "Imerialism"... yet the people know that the freedom fighter Mandela is opposed to them? "land grab", the West would probally not reversed Mugabe's land reform... well at least not give it back to white settler farmers.

I think this, not Iraq, was always the ideal case for Liberal/Socialist interventionism.

Pick1Pick1 [Member]
2008-06-29 @ 11:14

This article was about the 'far left' and not 'the left' - which was split between pro and anti-interventionist movements.

I think there are two separate themes here one is the spread of democracy which everyone agrees is best spread by soft power - and to give the U.S. credit the have been encouraging elections in Lebanon, Kuwait, Yemen and Pakistan as well as Ukraine, Georgia and Indonesia to name but a few. But yes they also turn a blind eye to some nasty regimes. It is also worth noting that the US donates vast sums of money to Jordan every year and supports various cultural projects in the country.

Regarding humanitarian intervention; this should based on the needs of humanity not of a particular religion. I think it could become dangerous to apply different humanitarian/moral standards to people of different races/religions. The Kuwaitis didn't start killing each other when the Americans liberated them from Saddam. Also I don't think the cimes of Jihadi murderers should prompt the U.S. to take an isolationist approach to the Mid East.

Paulus82 [Visitor]
http://suburbanmusings.blog.co.uk
2008-07-01 @ 16:00

Well, Kuwait it a totally different scenario. It was liberated, not invaded by America. The rich oil Sheikhs of Kuwait were glad to see the back of Saddam, as the Iraqis forced them to walk on the road, not street, stole from them and generally treated them like second class citizens in their home... but look at the affect the American presence had on Saudi mentality... and turned many like Osama Bin Ladin to hating America.

I do believe that all human rights are universal, but you cannot deny the collective thinking of Muslim countries, when it comes to being invaded. Compare the response from Serbia or Sierra Leoneans to that of Iraq or Afghanistan. But the invasion of Aghanistan was right...

And what I am propogating is that what America is doing in Egypy, Jordan etc is right, as they are supporting change through diplomacy and aid. That, like the Marshall Plan, is the America the world loves.

Pick1Pick1 [Member]
2008-07-01 @ 19:48

Ah yes but Iraqis were also liberated from Saddam's regime. I've heard it said by many Iraqis 'We thank them for getting rid of Saddam but we don't we don't want them in our counry', which is having your cake and eating it.

I strongly agree that the best way to promote democracy is through 'marshall plan' schemes. I also believe that capitalist democracy will triumph over all other forms of Govt via this peacful method.

I think it is perfectly fair to disagree with the decision to go to war; what I disagree with is the way people label America as 'neo-imperialist' when it is nothing of the sort. Furthermore whatever people's stance on the invasion everyone should acknowledge that the US has stabilised and pacified Iraq and it is also crucial to the country's future prosperity. Don't forget that the original invasion plans envisaged having all combat troops out of Iraq by September 2003. They should be credited for helping to lead the country out of the darkness.

Pick1Pick1 [Member]
2008-06-29 @ 11:21

Ianrosmarin

You don't have to agree with me. If you take an alternative view point then simply state it and I will happily respond.

If you use obsenities and fail to construct proper sentances then you simply embarrass yourself.

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