Bravo Nicolas!

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Bravo Nicolas!

by Pick1 @ 2009-06-24 – 10:58:44

"The burka is not a religious problem, it's a question of liberty and women's dignity. It's not a religious symbol, but a sign of subservience and debasement. I want to say solemnly, the burka is not welcome in France. In our country, we can't accept women prisoners behind a screen, cut off from all social life, deprived of all identity. That is not our idea of freedom.”

Nicolas Sarkozy, 22 June 2009.

I wrote about the issue a while ago, but President Sarkozy articulates my basic ideas on the subject more succinctly. Concern for individual human liberty should always trump respect for human ideologies.
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9 Comments to Bravo Nicolas!

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- Melrose
- 2009-06-24 @ 11:39:42
Hmm. But if folk want to submit themselves to the dictates of an ideology, that can't be gainsaid, can it?
- - Pick1
  - 2009-06-24 @ 12:12:06
  Yeah I thinks that crux of the matter and something I tried to grapple with in my blog.
  
  On the face of it women who chose to wear the burka are exercising their own free will; however this is not the case in reality.
  
  In many Gulf countries women are forced to wear the burka by the Govt. In Europe there is no such law but women who choose to wear the burka have been influenced by a Wahabi ideology which states that it is their religious duty to wear a burka. In effect they have been brainwashed by an ideology of subservience and believe they must wear a burka to please their God. They are unlikely to have had access to a liberal worldviewpoint. You see plenty of female Muslim professors but none that chose to wear a burka, because they have been exposed to critical thought.
  
  There was an interesting case in France last year in which a woman wearing a burka was found to be cut off from other world views "From her own declarations, she lives an almost reclusive life, cut off from French society," said Mme Prada-Bordenave. "She has no idea of secularism or the right to vote. She lives in total submission to the men in her family. She appears to find that normal…"
  
  http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/Burkawearing-woman-denied-citizenship-for.4282205.jp
  
  I understand the need to respect religious freedom but I think the burka is a sign of ideological brainwashing and the virtual enslavement of women, it is also damaging to the integration of different cultures. We can't turn our back on it. I think we should challenge this in the same way we challenge extremist political ideologies. I think Sarkozy should be aplauded for being so corageous.
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- Paul (Visitor)
- 2009-06-24 @ 15:15:18
I don't know, you have to accept in my countries the cultural norm is accepted and grasped far better than westerners with liberal views. firstly, you can not compare Gulf countries (and not one Gulf country forces women to wear the burqa, social pressure does have some sway though) to France. Also I would like to point that i have many friends who are from the Levant who lives in Saudi and never wore the burqa, although they have to wear the abaya when they leave their compounds. Indeed I was very suprised to see pictures of them dressed in the compounds like you would see anywhere in Europe.

Also, as the law strongly protects the right of women in Europe, there is no need for this law other than pure popular, Muslim-baiting, which is strongly inadvisable in a country already tainted with ethnic and secterian division and stigmitization of Muslims. If a woman is forced by her family to wear the burqa (which all Westerners seem to see it as, completely rejecting the notion of free will) then the law will stipulate that she may be protected by the state, particularly as to force someone to wear the burqa would mean there is a threat of domestic violence taking place. As it stands, women who freely want to wear a burqa in France (and I'm sure there are some who would be more comfortable to do so) will now be imprisoned in her own home due to a law which has not asked or considered the opionion and intentions of any of these women. Keep the law as it is, let them mix and mingle, and I can see the demise of the burqa within a decade. Change the law, and I can see repurcusions for decades.

Also, I think it would be noteworthy to see the reactionism when governments force secularism on religious people, particularly Muslims. Have a read of Reza Shah's rule of Iran when women had their veils pulled from their faces in public by the police. Although I am sure the French police are far too professional to embark on such behavior, Sarkozy's speech has succinctly given the green light for society to embark on such actions. This is pure and simply a populous attack on people's beliefs, not an intellectual debate on why women would choose to do this.
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- Pick1
- 2009-06-24 @ 16:02:24
How can it be Muslim-baiting when Tunisia and Turkey ban Islamic dress in public institutions and many many prominent Muslims have spoken out against the burka? How can it be Muslim baiting to care about Muslim women? I don't think that this is even about 'Islam' - the burka is a cultural rather than a religious symbol.

The burka/abaya/chador is not just a piece of clothing and in wahabbi/deobondi communities in Western Europe it represents a lifestyle and a culture - in which women are treated as subservient. The burka and the Wahabi/deobondi ideology it stems from are the very things that are preventing integration.

You obviously don't like the burka either so why do you arguing against criticsim of it?
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- Melrose
- 2009-06-25 @ 11:20:02
Pick1,

I think Paul has the right of it in this discussion.

I think to blame this kind of attire when worn in European countries on brainwashing is over-simplification. The reasons people dress the way they do is complex. It can be self expression, conformity to society at large, a quid quo pro for membership of an organisation, religious observance or even brain washing, or a mixture. The point is that we don't have grounds to claim we know exactly why people dress the way they do.

This is not to say that there is no brain-washing going on but the burka is - when all is said and done - mainly symbolic. Prohibiting it will mean more women being 'imprisoned' in their own homes, more violence because people have been looked at in the wrong way. It won't of itself stop girls being diverted from getting a good education.

I don't like the burka either but I think Sarkozy is trying to take a short cut to a more homogenous culture. I suspect Paul is right in saying that dress codes like the burka are best ignored.
- - Pick1
  - 2009-06-26 @ 10:07:53
  I don't agree it should be illegal to wear a burka either, but I'm not sure that that was what Sarkozy was arguing, and the law in this country does ban public nudity. I think the crux of the matter is that the burka is not just a piece of cloth. The burka/niqab has nothing to do with the Qu'ran - it is only required in Wahabbi/Deobondi culture - and this is a culture in which women are treated as chattel.
  
  Unfortunately no research has been done on the wearing of the burka in the West. I understand the French Govt. is conducting a survey on how far women have a truly free choice when choosing to wear the burka. From my observation of Orthodox Deobondi culture a women is expected to devote her life to her male relatives, which means no true freedom for women who believe in this ideology.
  
  I agree with personal freedom of religion but I believe the laissez-fayre attitude to multiculturalism in Britain has failed. If we look at secular countries such as the USA Muslims are far better integrated into society but still maintain freedom of religion. And in France the majority of Muslim women support the ban on headscarfs in public places. The problem is to even raise this debate in Britain is to be immediately accused of Islamaphobia.
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- Paul (Visitor)
- 2009-06-25 @ 14:27:40
I'm not argueing against criticism of the burqa, but I am argueing for the right of people to make a choice in the clothes they wear when they leave the house. If they feel more comfortable wearing a mini-skirt, so be it. If they feel more comfortable wearing a burqa so be it. With no offence to be taken, but how many Muslim women do you know? I have met some women who choose to wear the veil and they have their own reasons and doctrinal views on why they should wear it, not just cultural ones. It may be more of a societal norm to wear a burqa in Afghanistan than in Turkey, but it's also a matter of choice for a woman to wear one in the West. For me, this view of empowering women by banning certain garments is missing the point and patronizing to the intellect of women. I would also like to see, from this view, why there is not more vocal arguements in France urging the government to pass laws banning nuns clothing and whole institution of carmelites. Let laws stay in place to protect women, so they have the choice to wear what they want and in due course will make their own decision whether they feel comfortable enough to stop wearing it. In all, I think it's quite an immature, squeimish and contrasting to the principles and liberty and to shroud in 'emancipation of women' really does highligh a lack of awareness (or selective at best) and understanding of Muslim feminist issues.
- - Pick1
  - 2009-06-26 @ 09:55:42
  I know plenty of Muslims; I know them through books, documentaries, articles and news reports. I know Faiza M who
  
  "From her own declarations, lives an almost reclusive life, cut off from French society," said Mme Prada-Bordenave. "She has no idea of secularism or the right to vote. She lives in total submission to the men in her family. She appears to find that normal…"
  
  You can't just tell people they're not qualified to speak about a subject.
  
  The burka/abaya/chador is worn in Afghanistan/Saudi/Iran -three countries in which the subjugation of women is unarguable (and I'm not talking about the middle classes).
  
  In the West only a tiny minority of women wear the burka but we shouldn't ignore them. I have seen many British Muslim women say that they choose to wear the burka/niqab of their own free will. My point is that you would only make a rational choice to wear this dress if you had been influenced by Wahabi/Deobondi ideology, which is a deeply sepratist, supremacist and misogynist ideology damaging to those who are influenced by it and damaging to a harmonious society. A burka is not only objectionable as a piece of clothing. A woman who wears a burka is also likely to live a life of subservience to her male relatives; we can't turn our back on this.
  
  I don't agree with a law banning a burka either but I don't think we should ignore objectionable practices simply because they are part of another culture or even our own culture. If a black man chooses to be a white man's slave of his own free will, he has the right to do so; would you let him be or try and pursuade them that there are other choices available to him?
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- Melrose
- 2009-06-26 @ 10:47:31
I think we're agreed that outright prohibition of the burka isn't a good idea BUT President Sarkozy was being 'heavy' in saying "we can't accept..."; it gives the impression that legislation might be on the way.

I don't have much time for multiculturalism either - I think some ideas and ways of life are definitely better than others. But Burka wearing to multiculturalism is quite a leap; all I'm saying is that generalising about people's reasons for adopting different modes of dress is very difficult.

People adhering to beliefs that go against their own best interests; surely that's been happening all down the ages in all sorts of ways. I don't think we should turn our back on it but adherence needs more than blanket condemnation.
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